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Author Topic: Extremely Volatile Shopkeepers  (Read 6047 times)
nighthawk
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« on: May 02, 2014, 05:51:01 PM »

I've noticed recently while playing Spelunky that my most common cause of death is angry shopkeeper, despite the fact that I usually try to go for a friendly run and get enough money to buy the ankh. I hardly ever attack the shopkeepers, because I consider it too risky what with their camping out at the end of every level and all.

Unfortunately, shopkeepers are insanely volatile, and the slightest damage to themselves or their shops results in them getting angry at you. I once got the "you'll pay for your crimes" message randomly in the middle of a level, to find an angry shopkeeper at the bottom, near his untouched shop. I got past him without hurting him, but the very next level, the shopkeeper waiting for me got shot by another angry shopkeeper who had popped out of a nearby shop upon noticing me nearby, resulting in shopkeeper death and them hunting me for the rest of the game.

It is my one and only qualm with this game, and it's been bugging me like heck for a while.

tl;dr: Shopkeepers need to stop blaming the player for everything that happens to them.
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TunnelMan'sAfro
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2014, 09:34:59 PM »

Most of the time you can slip into the exit without being shot and if not, one or two sticky bombs will take care of them.
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Whooper1222
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2014, 11:45:28 PM »

I agree that the shopkeeper's anger need to be toned down.
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nighthawk
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2014, 10:47:52 AM »

Most of the time you can slip into the exit without being shot and if not, one or two sticky bombs will take care of them.
The problem is not that it is difficult to deal with the shopkeepers; the problem is the fact that it's nigh impossible to get through the game without making them angry at you at some point and triggering permanent shopkeeper hate. They simply get upset far too easily, sometimes even when it isn't the player's fault at all.

I think Spelunky is a very fair roguelike, but this is the one place where it is unfair. The game should not punish the player for having bad luck, but that's exactly what it's doing when a shopkeeper gets hit or killed by some random thing in the level.
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aloe
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2014, 10:39:24 AM »

Quote
The game should not punish the player for having bad luck
If bad luck isn't punishing then it's not "bad luck" to begin with. There are all sorts of things that can go wrong during a game of Spelunky, the question is whether you can deal with it.

If something triggers the Shopkeepers (and it has nothing at all to do with you - boulder doesn't count!), I agree that's frustrating but 1/ it's much less common than you're making out, and 2/ hey, that's how randomness works. You were on a law-abiding run, now you're not. Learning to deal with shopkeepers -whether that's keeping them sweet, or killing them once they're angry- is part of the game.
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Whooper1222
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2014, 11:29:51 AM »

Quote
The game should not punish the player for having bad luck
If bad luck isn't punishing then it's not "bad luck" to begin with. There are all sorts of things that can go wrong during a game of Spelunky, the question is whether you can deal with it.

If something triggers the Shopkeepers (and it has nothing at all to do with you - boulder doesn't count!), I agree that's frustrating but 1/ it's much less common than you're making out, and 2/ hey, that's how randomness works. You were on a law-abiding run, now you're not. Learning to deal with shopkeepers -whether that's keeping them sweet, or killing them once they're angry- is part of the game.
I disagree.

Things going wrong in Spelunky which are out of your control is completely unfair.
Saying "that's how randomness works" is not a good excuse. The choice of angering shoppkeepers should rest in the hands of the players. Do you even know what happens when you go to the black market? It's chaos.
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shopkeeperslayer
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 12:03:33 PM »

Quote
The game should not punish the player for having bad luck
If bad luck isn't punishing then it's not "bad luck" to begin with. There are all sorts of things that can go wrong during a game of Spelunky, the question is whether you can deal with it.

If something triggers the Shopkeepers (and it has nothing at all to do with you - boulder doesn't count!), I agree that's frustrating but 1/ it's much less common than you're making out, and 2/ hey, that's how randomness works. You were on a law-abiding run, now you're not. Learning to deal with shopkeepers -whether that's keeping them sweet, or killing them once they're angry- is part of the game.
I disagree.

Things going wrong in Spelunky which are out of your control is completely unfair.
Saying "that's how randomness works" is not a good excuse. The choice of angering shoppkeepers should rest in the hands of the players. Do you even know what happens when you go to the black market? It's chaos.
I agree blaze, whole heartedly. But I can actually destroy the black market with ease if necissary Tongue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PylESo6BT8o&feature=youtu.be although, can you get this post some attention? http://mossmouth.com/forums/index.php?topic=40563.0 because noone has given me any answers on this
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Whooper1222
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 12:53:05 PM »

Quote
The game should not punish the player for having bad luck
If bad luck isn't punishing then it's not "bad luck" to begin with. There are all sorts of things that can go wrong during a game of Spelunky, the question is whether you can deal with it.

If something triggers the Shopkeepers (and it has nothing at all to do with you - boulder doesn't count!), I agree that's frustrating but 1/ it's much less common than you're making out, and 2/ hey, that's how randomness works. You were on a law-abiding run, now you're not. Learning to deal with shopkeepers -whether that's keeping them sweet, or killing them once they're angry- is part of the game.
I disagree.

Things going wrong in Spelunky which are out of your control is completely unfair.
Saying "that's how randomness works" is not a good excuse. The choice of angering shoppkeepers should rest in the hands of the players. Do you even know what happens when you go to the black market? It's chaos.
I agree blaze, whole heartedly. But I can actually destroy the black market with ease if necissary Tongue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PylESo6BT8o&feature=youtu.be although, can you get this post some attention? http://mossmouth.com/forums/index.php?topic=40563.0 because noone has given me any answers on this
1. Thank you. Yes, the robbing the black market is not impossible.
2. I don't have any answers to that, but IIRC, some people have asked this question earlier.
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shopkeeperslayer
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 01:44:01 PM »

Quote
The game should not punish the player for having bad luck
If bad luck isn't punishing then it's not "bad luck" to begin with. There are all sorts of things that can go wrong during a game of Spelunky, the question is whether you can deal with it.

If something triggers the Shopkeepers (and it has nothing at all to do with you - boulder doesn't count!), I agree that's frustrating but 1/ it's much less common than you're making out, and 2/ hey, that's how randomness works. You were on a law-abiding run, now you're not. Learning to deal with shopkeepers -whether that's keeping them sweet, or killing them once they're angry- is part of the game.
I disagree.

Things going wrong in Spelunky which are out of your control is completely unfair.
Saying "that's how randomness works" is not a good excuse. The choice of angering shoppkeepers should rest in the hands of the players. Do you even know what happens when you go to the black market? It's chaos.
I agree blaze, whole heartedly. But I can actually destroy the black market with ease if necissary Tongue https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PylESo6BT8o&feature=youtu.be although, can you get this post some attention? http://mossmouth.com/forums/index.php?topic=40563.0 because noone has given me any answers on this
1. Thank you. Yes, the robbing the black market is not impossible.
2. I don't have any answers to that, but IIRC, some people have asked this question earlier.
well, then what do you suppose I do?
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Skoke
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« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 11:15:25 PM »

Search for previous threads with the search feature to find if its been answered

If that fails:

Give up, cry softly. Because if no one has an answer, posting it in another thread won't help any
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aloe
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2014, 10:41:33 AM »

I disagree.

Things going wrong in Spelunky which are out of your control is completely unfair.
Right. Which is why I said
Quote
If something triggers the Shopkeepers (and it has nothing at all to do with you - boulder doesn't count!), I agree that's frustrating

Do you even know what happens when you go to the black market? It's chaos.
Learning to deal with the black market is a pretty crucial skill if you want to make it to Hell.

Anyway, sometimes bad things happen in Spelunky. If you can't cope with that you're playing the wrong game.
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Whooper1222
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2014, 11:44:19 AM »

Anyway, sometimes bad things happen in Spelunky. If you can't cope with that you're playing the wrong game.
Random shopkeeper rage was supposedly not in the game's design or am I missing something?
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