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Author Topic: Spelunky seeds!  (Read 39392 times)
Nathan
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« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2013, 08:02:31 PM »

There are plenty of situations where seeds would be useful but there are plenty of chances that it'll be used to exploit in the game too. Without even knowing they are losing the experience. We cannot prevent people from cheating but adding seeds introduces the POSSIBILITY of cheating to a bigger media.

This seeding method already exists in the game as a Daily Challenge.
I think you answered your own argument...
If Daily challenges are already in the game, then you can easily:
watch two people play the same level, and see how their play styles are different.


It's already possible to do this using mods, as well as the fact that if you wanted to cheat to win the game there are various trainers and cheats available that are much easier than trying to play the game legitimately which still requires skill.
So why not just add a 'optional' way to cheat.
Seeds aren't cheats, but people often use to cheat games.
Most games that have seeds aren't like Spelunky... (if there are, then show me.)
That's the difference why I DON'T support seeds in this game.

Most roguelike games you're referring to aren't commercial games.
If you consider BOI(Binding of Isaac) a roguelike, then FYI you can't modify seeds in BOI directly with the game.




MANY MANY rougelike games have seeds. The original Rouge game where "rougelike" came from had competitions where people would pass around the same save game from the start of the game to see who could get the best score. You cannot argue that "rougelike games don't have this" when the FIRST ONE had it. Many other rougelike games offer "seeding" methods, such as Brouge.
As said above by KarjamP, Spelunky isn't a roguelike. He used that on Wikipedia and got the answer as just because the creater considers it doesn't mean it is.


Secondly, this option would obviously be separate from adventure mode and your score would not show up on the leaderboards (like they have any real value because you can easily hack your highscore.)
I'm not complaining about highscores.
It's about the experience people might lose using seeds.

Spelunky needs a lot of thinking and experience (which you learn as you play) than just practicing.

I'm sorry dude but seriously, chill the fuck out. I used to be like you (trying to argue about how every suggested improvement to Spelunky would destroy the core mechanics of the game) but then I relaxed a bit. Seeds would be cool. Will they make it into a future update? Probably not. That being said there is no reason to get all pissy when someone makes a suggestion to make a great game even greater!
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Whooper1222
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« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2013, 07:37:55 AM »

Like I said before, we can't prevent cheaters from cheating that's in their blood. They don't know what they are missing.
Seeds aren't a problem for helping cheaters, they will make newbies never try a different seed because they'll fear they might lose. They'll find a 'easy seed' and use it for practicing forever. You don't need seeds for practicing.

The major problem of not only seeds but many other things, that they are used wrongly by people without even knowing...
Same level generation is good for challenges and races, but a huge number of people will use it by some other means they weren't supposed to.
I don't see how it's different from other cheating. With normal cheats, they have to go out of the their way to install a cheat which makes the game easier. If we had some way to manipulate the seeds, it would be the same thing.

I don't think many people would go for this type of cheat anyway. When it comes to people complaining about the game, I rarely see them complain about the random level generation. I usually see them complain about the ghost or the lack of lives. Something they can already change with current available cheats.
Cheats don't come with the game, do they? But seeds do.
But if you get one with it, will you NOT use it (maybe, just for fun)?
And that fun will prevent you from playing the ACTUAL game,
and make you stick with it.

Once you know how to cheat and play it casually, then it's very hard to get back. Since it's already a hard game, when people get a easy way, they'll use it instead, even when they didn't actually targeted for, but using because 'just for fun'.
And by the way, people don't care for highscores.

Most people will get stuck on the easy way if they get it, even when they didn't targeted for. They'll see the forums, where other people will share seeds in which there's a crate in 1-1 containing a crate. They'll use it, ignoring highscores and leaderboards.

Spelunky is an adventure game, and adventures don't come predicted. You are never supposed to play the same cave. They weren't seeds in the Classic nor is in the HD. If the devs REALLY wanted it, they could have easily added it.

Even if the first roguelike game had seeds, that doesn't mean Spelunky needs it too. Spelunky is an adventure platformer inspired by some elements present in roguelikes, not a clone of 'Rogue'. You can't argue that it's a roguelike, because Wikipedia itself didn't agree and answered, 'Just because the creator considers it, doesn't mean it IS'.



I'm sorry dude but seriously, chill the fuck out. I used to be like you (trying to argue about how every suggested improvement to Spelunky would destroy the core mechanics of the game) but then I relaxed a bit. Seeds would be cool. Will they make it into a future update? Probably not. That being said there is no reason to get all pissy when someone makes a suggestion to make a great game even greater!
Maybe because you...   gave up!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 07:42:53 AM by Blaze06h » Logged

Jackie Chandler
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« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2013, 11:27:21 AM »

I think seeds would be a pretty neat feature in Spelunky. Wouldn't it be cool if you got owned by a particularly hard generation, and had the ability to share that exact same experience with your friends? Or if you ran into something really weird in a generation, and wanted to give others the chance to experience it firsthand? Or if you died to something totally stupid, and needed the chance to try the same generation again? I think that'd be pretty darn neat.

That said, I don't think Spelunky should abandon the randomness factor at its core just for the sake of implementing this feature - but that doesn't mean the idea has to be totally disregarded, either.

Instead of having a number of predetermined stages set at random, why not have a coded record of what each random generation is, and the ability to copy/share that generation at will? Basically, it'd be just like how Spelunky works for the Daily Challenge, only instead of importing every stage in advance, you'd be exporting them for future use.

It'd be even better if there was an option after dying/completing a game to share with people on your Friend's List, or to save to the generation to a list (preferably one that could be exported to an e-mail/phone/website/app/etc.). But that's just my opinion. Thoughts? Anyone?
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Nathan
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« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2013, 12:52:06 PM »

Like I said before, we can't prevent cheaters from cheating that's in their blood. They don't know what they are missing.
Seeds aren't a problem for helping cheaters, they will make newbies never try a different seed because they'll fear they might lose. They'll find a 'easy seed' and use it for practicing forever. You don't need seeds for practicing.

The major problem of not only seeds but many other things, that they are used wrongly by people without even knowing...
Same level generation is good for challenges and races, but a huge number of people will use it by some other means they weren't supposed to.
I don't see how it's different from other cheating. With normal cheats, they have to go out of the their way to install a cheat which makes the game easier. If we had some way to manipulate the seeds, it would be the same thing.

I don't think many people would go for this type of cheat anyway. When it comes to people complaining about the game, I rarely see them complain about the random level generation. I usually see them complain about the ghost or the lack of lives. Something they can already change with current available cheats.
Cheats don't come with the game, do they? But seeds do.
But if you get one with it, will you NOT use it (maybe, just for fun)?
And that fun will prevent you from playing the ACTUAL game,
and make you stick with it.

Once you know how to cheat and play it casually, then it's very hard to get back. Since it's already a hard game, when people get a easy way, they'll use it instead, even when they didn't actually targeted for, but using because 'just for fun'.
And by the way, people don't care for highscores.

Most people will get stuck on the easy way if they get it, even when they didn't targeted for. They'll see the forums, where other people will share seeds in which there's a crate in 1-1 containing a crate. They'll use it, ignoring highscores and leaderboards.

Spelunky is an adventure game, and adventures don't come predicted. You are never supposed to play the same cave. They weren't seeds in the Classic nor is in the HD. If the devs REALLY wanted it, they could have easily added it.

Even if the first roguelike game had seeds, that doesn't mean Spelunky needs it too. Spelunky is an adventure platformer inspired by some elements present in roguelikes, not a clone of 'Rogue'. You can't argue that it's a roguelike, because Wikipedia itself didn't agree and answered, 'Just because the creator considers it, doesn't mean it IS'.



I'm sorry dude but seriously, chill the fuck out. I used to be like you (trying to argue about how every suggested improvement to Spelunky would destroy the core mechanics of the game) but then I relaxed a bit. Seeds would be cool. Will they make it into a future update? Probably not. That being said there is no reason to get all pissy when someone makes a suggestion to make a great game even greater!
Maybe because you...   gave up!

You seem to think people would just play the same easy seed over and over. Besides, seeds aren't cheating
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DevinCraig
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« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2013, 01:48:07 PM »

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Subscriber01236
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« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2013, 02:03:55 PM »


Fun is for babies
(I personally would only like seeds if they didn't count towards leaderboards or anything because the whole reason i play spelunky is for the randomly generated adventures)
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DevinCraig
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« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2013, 02:06:57 PM »


Fun is for babies
(I personally would only like seeds if they didn't count towards leaderboards or anything because the whole reason i play spelunky is for the randomly generated adventures)
Yeah, seeds shouldn't count towards leaderboards.
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Nathan
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« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2013, 02:44:44 PM »

Well obviously they shouldnt. I mean you could find a seed with a ton of chests and stuff and play it over and over.
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Brof. Yarott
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« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2013, 09:32:41 PM »

... I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Level Editor + Seed Generator = Walrus Lady



That is all.
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Spelunky HD for XBLA/PSN/PC needs by "Official" means the following:

* A Level Editor!
* An "Endless" Mode!
* The "Classic" Music Tracks!
* The "Walrus Lady" for good measure!
* Playable Characters: The Damsel(s), The Tunnel Man (w/ Mattock) & The Shopkeeper
Whooper1222
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« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2013, 06:21:18 AM »


Fun is for babies
(I personally would only like seeds if they didn't count towards leaderboards or anything because the whole reason I play Spelunky is for the randomly generated adventures)
That's exactly my point...
Adding seeds would remove the joy of an 'adventure'.
Adventures aren't predictable. You never know what is coming upon you.



Also, DevinCraig, as if seeds are the only fun thing. You play games or seeds?


Nathan, yep that's what I think, so?
If they disable the leaderboards, it wouldn't be cheating.
And cheating isn't my only point.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 06:31:35 AM by Blaze06h » Logged

Nathan
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« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2013, 01:16:52 AM »

I mean a seed generator doesnt affect randomness at all. Honestly here is how it should work.

a. you play an adventure

b. once you die you are given a seed of the adventure you just played to share with friends.

That way you have to play random adventures to obtain the seed and once you get it you can compete with friends etc.
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Whooper1222
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« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2013, 06:10:00 AM »

I mean a seed generator doesnt affect randomness at all. Honestly here is how it should work.

a. you play an adventure

b. once you die you are given a seed of the adventure you just played to share with friends.

That way you have to play random adventures to obtain the seed and once you get it you can compete with friends etc.
...And this is how i can go:

a. Someone gets a seed that has a Plasma Cannon in a crate in 1-1.

b. You (Not you, but a newbie) use it and think of trying to beat the game using it, as a 'Just for fun' experiment, but you stick to it, most of the time.

This way, you never really experience the 'randomness'.

I sure get what you want, but that might not be the same for everyone. Some might use it to play the game the easy way.

If you want a competition with your friends, there should be feature which generates a random cave for all the competitors, but no one knows what the seed is.
And next round, it's again randomized, making the competition fair but still keeping it random.

Games aren't for only highscores and achievements, they are for entertainment.
And Spelunky lets you play or spelunk a randomly generated cave full of adventures and unknown outcome, making you rely on your thinking capability, practice and the knowledge, you gained from playing the game.

Don't just think of the profit, think of the 'dark side'.
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KarjamP
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« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2013, 12:07:33 PM »

Stubbornness won't help you win the argument, Blaze.

I there's just as much people who "cheat" like you've described it than people who want a challenge, like how Spelunky's supposed to be like.

There will always be cheaters who want to make the game easier, and there will always be people who like playing the game legitimately.

Besides, even if it's used as a easy way out, that doesn't mean the game would automatically become bad.

As the others pointed out, there IS some benefits to having seeds, despite the fact that seeds could be exploited to make the game easier.

And to put it another way, I've seen an old game that supports seeds using a seed as a tutorial level to teach the player how to play.

Meaning, just because the game's made easy, doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, even if the game was designed to be challenging, as in this case, it's to teach the player how to play the game (for Spelunky, it can be used for tutorials outside of the context of the Yang tutorial).

Of course, your stubbornness makes you not willing to listen to me anyway.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 12:09:13 PM by KarjamP » Logged

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Brof. Yarott
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« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2013, 12:51:31 PM »

Stubbornness won't help you win the argument, Blaze.

I there's just as much people who "cheat" like you've described it than people who want a challenge, like how Spelunky's supposed to be like.

There will always be cheaters who want to make the game easier, and there will always be people who like playing the game legitimately.

Besides, even if it's used as a easy way out, that doesn't mean the game would automatically become bad.

As the others pointed out, there IS some benefits to having seeds, despite the fact that seeds could be exploited to make the game easier.

And to put it another way, I've seen an old game that supports seeds using a seed as a tutorial level to teach the player how to play.

Meaning, just because the game's made easy, doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, even if the game was designed to be challenging, as in this case, it's to teach the player how to play the game (for Spelunky, it can be used for tutorials outside of the context of the Yang tutorial).

Of course, your stubbornness makes you not willing to listen to me anyway.

For the sake of argument, you two are as stubborn as a Mule vs a Child with a Tantrum fit. Want seeds? Mod them in. I was surprised that someone is also making their own Level Editor, even though it is only for the PC version. So, I am waiting for that.

Also, I mostly explained a reason why this won't work in another topic. But if you want to go against the spirit of the game, then who's the stubborn one now?

This topic isn't going anywhere now.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 01:27:30 PM by Brof. Yarott » Logged

Spelunky HD for XBLA/PSN/PC needs by "Official" means the following:

* A Level Editor!
* An "Endless" Mode!
* The "Classic" Music Tracks!
* The "Walrus Lady" for good measure!
* Playable Characters: The Damsel(s), The Tunnel Man (w/ Mattock) & The Shopkeeper
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« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2013, 01:02:34 PM »

*un-related*
Brof Yarott, the level editor is out nao :3
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