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Games => Spelunky Classic => Topic started by: marsgreekgod on October 19, 2009, 11:42:16 AM



Title: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 19, 2009, 11:42:16 AM
Rogue-like Shooter?
Rogue-like Racer?
Rogue-like Tactics game?
Rogue-like Sports game?

Spelunky did the performer very very well.. but what more could be done?


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AresRomanGod on October 19, 2009, 12:34:44 PM
Thanks to Arucard, I know of one:

Demon's souls.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Uky on October 19, 2009, 03:50:30 PM
Hmm... for a shooter, perhaps a game similar in style to Portal but with randomized levels? I wouldn't really call a normal pure action shooter with random levels a rogue-like. Making use of items in all sorts of complex ways is rather key to being a rogue-like in my opinion.

I could certainly imaging a tactics game being done in a more rogue-like fashion. Probably have your teammates just follow you around (like a pet in Nethack), rather then them all being separate entities though.

Hack 'n slash games are a candidate. Hardcore mode on the Diablo games were considered similar to rogue-likes to some. Randomized levels, permanent death. A bit too fast paced for me at times though. Generally I expect to be able to have time to think in a rogue-like. Still, I think you could take a game like Diablo and tweak it a bit to make it even more of a rogue-like and have it be fun.



Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Kegluneq on October 19, 2009, 06:34:31 PM
Spelunky + Soldat + Many more smarter enemies + slightly more open areas = shooter roguelike? (at least the 2d kind)


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AresRomanGod on October 19, 2009, 06:34:40 PM
Meh, fat princess could be one.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: GreyMario on October 19, 2009, 06:48:13 PM
Roguelike Tetris.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Kegluneq on October 19, 2009, 07:14:16 PM
Isn't it already? I mean how much more random could it get?


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Delmion on October 19, 2009, 08:14:19 PM
It just occurred to me to toss in Russian roulette.

--Delmion


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AresRomanGod on October 19, 2009, 08:15:03 PM
It just occurred to me to toss in Russian roulette.

--Delmion

HAH! Good one!


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 19, 2009, 09:44:38 PM
Hmm... for a shooter, perhaps a game similar in style to Portal but with randomized levels? I wouldn't really call a normal pure action shooter with random levels a rogue-like. Making use of items in all sorts of complex ways is rather key to being a rogue-like in my opinion.
I was thinking more of space ship shooter. but thats most likely a better idea.

I could certainly imaging a tactics game being done in a more rogue-like fashion. Probably have your teammates just follow you around (like a pet in Nethack), rather then them all being separate entities though.
A tacitcs game where you only have one person under your control doesn't seem very much fun to me.. 

Hack 'n slash games are a candidate. Hardcore mode on the Diablo games were considered similar to rogue-likes to some. Randomized levels, permanent death. A bit too fast paced for me at times though. Generally I expect to be able to have time to think in a rogue-like. Still, I think you could take a game like Diablo and tweak it a bit to make it even more of a rogue-like and have it be fun.
I... never played diablo...

Thanks to Arucard, I know of one:

Demon's souls.
I hear it 's very rogue like. If I had a ps3...


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Arucard on October 20, 2009, 01:38:48 AM
My favorite feature of the Rogue-likes is the character creation. The fact that every time you play, you are a brand new person and on a brand new adventure. This, to me, is what makes each death and replay fun and interesting you kind of build up your own history in the game. It's also what I dislike about a lot of RPGs, the fact that the world is so obviously made just for your character. Oh, so this ancient treasure has been sitting out here in the open for thousands of years and NO ONE has ever bothered to touch it? So, in that sense, any game that can be replayed with varying characters could be an interesting Rogue-like. MMO games jump to mind, a Rogue-like Star Wars. Something like Oblivion would be cool, but that's basically Demon's Souls. The only problem there is, you still play the same character when you die.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Uky on October 20, 2009, 01:44:51 AM
I was thinking more of space ship shooter. but thats most likely a better idea.
Oh, a shmup? That sounds interesting. I like shmups but one of my biggest gripes with them are that I'd often get "better" at the game not by learning to play better but by memorizing the bullet patterns and what not...

A tacitcs game where you only have one person under your control doesn't seem very much fun to me..  
Well an example (though a pretty simplistic one strategy-wise) are the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games. Basically they're just RPGs with the dungeon crawling/combat portion of them replaced with rogue-like mechanics. You play one character and have 1-3 others following you and you control them in a limited fashion by selecting what moves they can do, what items they hold, what behavior to follow... etc. You just don't directly control them. It's not so bad and has a similar feel to an SRPG I think. *shrug*

Thanks to Arucard, I know of one:

Demon's souls.
I hear it 's very rogue like. If I had a ps3...
Makes me wish I had a PS3 to try it out as well. Although I am skeptical on just how much a game can feel like a rogue-like without having random levels. "Rogue-like" doesn't have a very rigid definition (a bunch of games like Rogue? heheh) but random levels are the first thing I think about when I hear the genre mentioned. There being a hundred ways to die comes in at second for me ;D.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: johnnoz on October 20, 2009, 02:04:23 AM
Well borderlands coming out soon is essentially a diablo-like FPS, and many consider diablo to be very close to rougelikes so THAT combo isn't too far fetched.

lol, a rougelike Metroidvania? randomly generated areas with random saverooms and upgrades and stuff, and it'd spawn some stuff earlier on that would require backtracking and such... actually that could work...


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 20, 2009, 09:51:21 AM
Well borderlands coming out soon is essentially a diablo-like FPS, and many consider diablo to be very close to rougelikes so THAT combo isn't too far fetched.

lol, a rougelike Metroidvania? randomly generated areas with random saverooms and upgrades and stuff, and it'd spawn some stuff earlier on that would require backtracking and such... actually that could work...
That would  be really cool... if you could make sure it never made levels that can't be beat.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AresRomanGod on October 20, 2009, 12:43:46 PM
Yeah, i'd see that as a problem.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 20, 2009, 07:59:28 PM
It would have to put items before where they are needed, but not all at the start... and not behind something that needs something...

nothing like
jump boots (need cape to get)
Cape (needs jump boots to get)



Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AresRomanGod on October 20, 2009, 08:12:03 PM
That means you can't get either.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Uky on October 20, 2009, 08:15:18 PM
Yeah, that's what they mean. You'd need to make sure situations like that weren't created.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 20, 2009, 08:35:41 PM
Which i wouldn't know how to do, so count me out for making that one.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AresRomanGod on October 20, 2009, 08:36:31 PM
Hm. Interesting.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 20, 2009, 08:59:16 PM
but count me in for making a tactics game. (heck I planed on doing that before this topic, I even made sprites and everything)


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AceOfScarabs on October 21, 2009, 08:02:53 AM
A Rogue-modded X-Com "clone" would be awesome. Imagine the (more) randomly generated battlescapes! More unusual weapons! I want a Legendary heavy Plasma...


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Kegluneq on October 21, 2009, 03:24:06 PM
Hm I could see the metroidvania working.
Just do several check run-throughs and designate certain areas as requiring one item or another to get. And make sure nothing spawns anywhere unreachable. I realize this is hard to understand so lets draw a picture here:
(http://willhostforfood.com/files4/1/1/2/1127716/mvrl.bmp)
The dark colored pixels represent the item you need to access the lighter colored regions.

(If you can't see it, use this link: http://willhostforfood.com/files4/1/1/2/1127716/mvrl.bmp)


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: strongbad on October 21, 2009, 05:13:15 PM
A Rouge-like SHMUP would be awesome! SHmups are very hard, and games like     R-type require you to memorize bullet patterns. it would be great to do away with that!


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 21, 2009, 10:14:43 PM
Hm I could see the metroidvania working.
Just do several check run-throughs and designate certain areas as requiring one item or another to get. And make sure nothing spawns anywhere unreachable. I realize this is hard to understand so lets draw a picture here:
(http://willhostforfood.com/files4/1/1/2/1127716/mvrl.bmp)
The dark colored pixels represent the item you need to access the lighter colored regions.

(If you can't see it, use this link: http://willhostforfood.com/files4/1/1/2/1127716/mvrl.bmp)
You know... that COULD work. that would be hard to make, but that would be EPIC. truly epic. idea: make lots of boss fights from with versons from hard to easy based on how deep they are in the area.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Delmion on October 21, 2009, 10:58:26 PM
Yes!  Very much so!  That map may be very basic (how to define "inaccessible without item yet completely accessible with it" will vary a lot based on the nature of the item), but you have reduced it to something that a computer can totally do.  I want to see it made.

--Delmion


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 21, 2009, 11:47:07 PM
No really I bet we could do this. I am ok with game maker. this sounds like fun. whos with me?


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Vanguard on October 22, 2009, 01:53:07 AM
Rogue-like Shooter?

Would work.

Rogue-like Racer?

I don't think this would work.

Rogue-like Tactics game?

Fire Emblem comes pretty close.  Just replace the static content with randomized content and you're there.

Rogue-like Sports game?

I don't think this would work either.

Spelunky did the performer very very well.. but what more could be done?

What about either a Link's Awakening/A Link to the Past style action adventure game?

I would suggest a metroidvania, but it looks like that idea has already been thrown out there.

A tacitcs game where you only have one person under your control doesn't seem very much fun to me..

Roguelikes are tactics games where you only have one person under your control.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Arucard on October 22, 2009, 03:27:41 AM
Yes!  Very much so!  That map may be very basic (how to define "inaccessible without item yet completely accessible with it" will vary a lot based on the nature of the item), but you have reduced it to something that a computer can totally do.  I want to see it made.

--Delmion
Could you make a central hub type area that had doors leading to the separate, "closed off" ones? So you would have one area which was not randomized, and had say a destructible wall, or a high wall leading to another. That way you would have to finish whatever area you could reach (containing a bomb, high jump, etc.) before you could enter the others.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Uky on October 22, 2009, 07:51:28 AM
Hm I could see the metroidvania working.
Just do several check run-throughs and designate certain areas as requiring one item or another to get. And make sure nothing spawns anywhere unreachable.
Yes. I was thinking about this and was imagining having a level generator which develops areas based upon what items/upgrades have already been placed.

So to use Spelunky terminology... imaging a level generator starting off creating only areas which require a max height of two. At some point the level generator places spring shoes into the game and now any area it creates beyond this point can now have a height of three. We know the spring shoes are accessible this way. Again at a later point, climbing gloves are placed into the game somewhere and any further generated spots are allowed to have tall cliffs to climb. The level generator would not finish entire areas in one pass but leave branches left alone to be able to come back to at later points to simulate the whole back tracking thing. Have it jump back and forth while doing the level generation.

Same goes for other items. Only generate gaps of a certain length until a cape is placed and then you can generate larger gaps... etc.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 22, 2009, 11:28:15 AM


Rogue-like Tactics game?

Fire Emblem comes pretty close.  Just replace the static content with randomized content and you're there.
Which is what gave me the idea in the first place, playing fire emblem while reading about spelunky

Roguelikes are tactics games where you only have one person under your control.
Not really... It's an rpg with one person. not a tactics game.

Hm I could see the metroidvania working.
Just do several check run-throughs and designate certain areas as requiring one item or another to get. And make sure nothing spawns anywhere unreachable.
Yes. I was thinking about this and was imagining having a level generator which develops areas based upon what items/upgrades have already been placed.

So to use Spelunky terminology... imaging a level generator starting off creating only areas which require a max height of two. At some point the level generator places spring shoes into the game and now any area it creates beyond this point can now have a height of three. We know the spring shoes are accessible this way. Again at a later point, climbing gloves are placed into the game somewhere and any further generated spots are allowed to have tall cliffs to climb. The level generator would not finish entire areas in one pass but leave branches left alone to be able to come back to at later points to simulate the whole back tracking thing. Have it jump back and forth while doing the level generation.

Same goes for other items. Only generate gaps of a certain length until a cape is placed and then you can generate larger gaps... etc.

Thats... really well thought out plan. If we got it twisting and turning (so it didn't just make one path, with areas you could go back to) It would work i think...


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Kegluneq on October 22, 2009, 07:09:06 PM
Hm I could see the metroidvania working.
Just do several check run-throughs and designate certain areas as requiring one item or another to get. And make sure nothing spawns anywhere unreachable.
Yes. I was thinking about this and was imagining having a level generator which develops areas based upon what items/upgrades have already been placed.

So to use Spelunky terminology... imaging a level generator starting off creating only areas which require a max height of two. At some point the level generator places spring shoes into the game and now any area it creates beyond this point can now have a height of three. We know the spring shoes are accessible this way. Again at a later point, climbing gloves are placed into the game somewhere and any further generated spots are allowed to have tall cliffs to climb. The level generator would not finish entire areas in one pass but leave branches left alone to be able to come back to at later points to simulate the whole back tracking thing. Have it jump back and forth while doing the level generation.

Same goes for other items. Only generate gaps of a certain length until a cape is placed and then you can generate larger gaps... etc.

My thoughts exactly!


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: q0099 on October 23, 2009, 01:34:47 AM
I would like to have some Kirby game with random levels.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AresRomanGod on October 26, 2009, 07:14:58 PM
Gah, kirby.

Disgusting.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AceOfScarabs on October 27, 2009, 07:05:55 PM
Sonic the Roguelike! I wish to have randomised zones, to spice things up.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 27, 2009, 07:51:28 PM
Sonic the Roguelike! I wish to have randomised zones, to spice things up.
how... would that work?


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AresRomanGod on October 27, 2009, 11:10:45 PM
Sonic the Roguelike! I wish to have randomised zones, to spice things up.
how... would that work?

With 50 randomized enemies, and you spamming down+b.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: eguee on October 28, 2009, 03:51:29 AM
Roguelike soccer game! The goals randomly shift position every time a goal is scored, and spike totems occasionally pop out of the ground to impale players.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Ninja_Zane on October 28, 2009, 09:32:59 AM
Roguelike soccer game! The goals randomly shift position every time a goal is scored, and spike totems occasionally pop out of the ground to impale players.
:o


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 28, 2009, 07:11:58 PM
Roguelike soccer game! The goals randomly shift position every time a goal is scored, and spike totems occasionally pop out of the ground to impale players.
And if you die that player stays dead forever!


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: q0099 on October 29, 2009, 06:25:48 AM
DeLGato232
Quote
Gah, kirby.

Disgusting.

Why? It would be cool.


marsgreekgod

If I remember correctly, Aztecs played game of this kind IRL.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 29, 2009, 10:17:32 AM
marsgreekgod

If I remember correctly, Aztecs played game of this kind IRL.
?????


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: q0099 on October 29, 2009, 02:50:41 PM
marsgreekgod

Sorry, my mistake. Aztec actually played ballgame ullamaliztli, but sacrifices of losing teams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame#Human_sacrifice) were made by Maya, who also played version of this game called pitz.

(Did I wrote this sentence correct?)


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 29, 2009, 03:02:07 PM
marsgreekgod

Sorry, my mistake. Aztec actually played ballgame ullamaliztli, but human sacrifices of losing team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame#Human_sacrifice) were making by Maya, who also played version of this game called pitz.

(Did I wrote this sentence correct?)
Man I would hate to play that game.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AresRomanGod on October 30, 2009, 05:33:56 PM
I played that game against eguee yesterday. I won.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 30, 2009, 10:21:19 PM
and he's still alive?


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: AceOfScarabs on October 31, 2009, 05:40:36 AM
how... would that work?

Have Act (level) size determined by size ranges (for example, 7-12 screen-lengths tall by 20-25 screen-lengths long), broken into discrete sections of 128x128 level element blocks. Each standard 128^2 block will contain raw (no-object) level segments, which will be fitted by a pathfinder to generate (1-3?) level paths.

The level will then be populated by a variable number of enemies, rings will be added in terms of clusters, and then level objects (tubes, springs, corkscrew paths, Z-bend tunnels, see-saws, crushers, spikes, floating/moving platforms, and such) will be added based on the level theme.

Boss levels will have specific areas of the level board pregenerated (Eggmobile + room as a setpiece), Chaos Emerald Portals (Giant Rings!) will be pregenerated inside a specific type of "room" block, and hidden tunnels will be dug through a level. The other important pregenerated level block is the Level End block, which either has a Prison Egg capsule (gives points or rings) or a Level End Marker (may give items).

Special Stages could be either pregenerated or randomised, using similar principles depending on the type of Special Stage implemented.

Of course, being forced to navigate a Zone made mostly of springs, zip tubes. bottomless pits, and spikes with few rings won't be very fun, so population limitations/modifiers may be used to adjust the difficulty of the zones. For added player effect on the game, make it so they player can influence the level generator by fulfiling specific goals in-game (Sonic CD style Badnik maker destroyed = fewer enemy spawns, for example).

As a full example, a level generation set for random Green Hill:

Level Theme: Green Hill (This defines what objects and enemys used to populate)
Zone Size: 25-32 long by 5-9 tall
Zone Length: 3 (Determines number of acts generated for the zone, boss level is generated for the last Act of zone)
Ring population: High (180-200+; This determines number of Ring Clusters used)
Enemy population: Low (15-24; determines how many enemies placed within the level)
Trap population: Medium (25-40)
Level Object Density: Medium (3-6; determines how many objects to spawn per 128^ level block on average)
End Level Object: 75 marker/25 capsule (percentage chance of getting either the Egg Capsule or the End Marker at the end of level.)

Getting the game to generate "Speed" or "Platforming" levels could be tricky though, unless the generation formula for pathfinding is different for both.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Arucard on October 31, 2009, 10:23:56 AM
I just got Way of the Samurai 3 and was thinking about the first time playing the original. It features permanent death, and not random game play, but many choice paths that change the course of the rest of the game. You also unlock different heads and outfits for your samurai. Enemies statistics (other than main characters) and weapons are randomized and get better quality on higher difficulty. In the second some of the jobs you take are in random orders also. I was one of the few who really loved this game from the start, a similar style could be potentially a great rogue-like action game.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: marsgreekgod on October 31, 2009, 10:40:24 AM
-AceOfScarabs's quote is long, but I am replying to it with out reply so it doesn't take up so much room-

That would work then...

if only I liked sonic.


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: GreyMario on October 31, 2009, 04:17:55 PM
Gah, kirby.

Disgusting.


DUDE


FUCK YOU


KIRBY IS AWESOME


Title: Re: What other kinds of games could be Rogue-liked?
Post by: Kegluneq on November 01, 2009, 09:33:14 PM
I agree, Kirby is the shiz. But could we calm down a little?